NorthCoastOregon.com

On Jul 11, 6:20 AM, Ron wrote:

Commissioner Patrick speaks of the Railroad in the Knappa area. Can anyone please explain why we continually pursue funds,development,repair and permits of this non utilized transportation system???

On Jul 11, 11:07 AM, Ron wrote:

Hey “LNG WORKS FOR ME” thanks for reply and count me on board.

I would love to drive the Honda CNG but not allowed in Oregon.

On Jul 11, 2:35 PM, CNG works too wrote:

According to ODE “Converting a vehicle to use CNG costs about $3,000 and proves to be cost-effective over the vehicle’s life considering fuel cost savings alone. Conversion with certified parts may be allowed by the manufacturer for warranty maintenance. Other fueling sites in Oregon owned by natural gas utilities will soon be available for use by Oregon fleet vehicles. Currently, the only cost-effective investment in CNG use is for vehicles with convenient access to fast-fill fueling stations.  Most CNG fueling sites are located on the Interstate 5 corridor.”

“LIQUIFIED PETROLEUM GAS (LPG)
This fuel, commonly known as propane, is the most widely used alternative fuel in Oregon at this time. There are more than 250 refueling sites throughout the state. Although this is a petroleum based fuel it has some of the clean burning characteristics of other alternative fuels. Conversion of vehicles cost approximately $3,000. It is believed that LPG conversion violates vehicle warranty. The additional conversion cost and similar price per gallon do not make propane the best choice for cost effectiveness since there is 25 percent less energy content in a gallon of propane compared to unleaded gasoline.”

ELECTRIC
The commercial production of these vehicles started in 1992, with new technology changes each year. Improvements continue and have not yet stabilized causing high initial incremental costs. Typical electric vehicles for fleet commuting applications cost between $7,000 and $15,000 more than an equivalent gas fueled vehicle. Recharging infrastructure is not a significant barrier, and vehicle miles per charge are improving. A new class of lower cost, ultra-light-weight electric vehicles dedicated to local commute, campus or single site applications have shown outstanding cost-effectiveness.  The higher first cost of electric vehicles designed to be used as a replacement for a conventional vehicle applications have shown to be less cost effective.

More info on CNG cars in Oregon.

On Jul 11, 5:20 PM, cut n paste wrote:

That “drawback” is hardly the drawback brought to us via “Common Sense” crowd and their goal of isolating Clatsop County from all technology. And look at the space the wind mill farms take up or a field of solar panels! Alternative energy is not as convenient as gasoline. Give it time. 

Furthermore, CNG & LNG’s benefits far outweigh a little bit of inconvenience of taking up extra space.

About CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) and LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas)

Natural gas is one of the cleanest, safest, and most useful forms of energy. It represents about 25 percent of all primary energy used in the United States. The natural gas used for NGVs is the same natural gas that is piped to millions of homes for cooking and heating. Information on the superior safety characteristics of natural gas can be found here. Natural gas is a very simple fuel. Around 90% of natural gas is methane (CH4),which is just one carbon atom with four hydrogen atoms attached, with the remainder comprising of propane, butane and other components. Composition varies according to the source of the natural gas.

The only simpler fuel available is hydrogen, which is technically an energy ‘carrier’ rather than an energy source itself. As yet there is no economic method of creating and distributing large quantities of hydrogen, so, until this occurs, natural gas will remain the clean fuel of choice for some time. Being rich in Hydrogen, natural gas is often used as a feedstock, which is one of the reasons why natural gas vehicles are often referred to as the ‘pathway to the hydrogen economy’. Ultimately, an investment in natural gas infrastructure is an investment in hydrogen infrastructure.

Natural gas, although a fossil fuel, is considered to be an alternative energy source because it is a preferable alternative to oil. You may say, “Why is natural gas considered to be an alternative fuel? Isn’t gas a fossil fuel?” You are right – natural gas is a fossil fuel but it is different from gasoline, petroleum and coal because it does not contain the same harmful compounds found in other fossil fuels. Unlike gasoline, petroleum and coal, natural gas has a negligible sulfur dioxide content, does not contain lead, has a low nitrogen dioxide content, a low particulate content, and a low carbon monoxide content. As well, natural gas does not require carcinogenic (cancer-causing) additives to boost octane levels because natural gas is naturally high in octane. In addition, natural gas is still abundantly available which means that it is practical to rely on its continued supply for hundreds of years into the future.

CNG - is natural gas under pressure which remains clear, odorless, and non-corrosive. Although vehicles can use natural gas as either a liquid or a gas, most vehicles use the gaseous form compressed to pressures above 3,600 pounds per square inch.

LNG - is natural gas in its liquid form. When natural gas is cooled to minus 259 degrees Fahrenheit (-161 degrees Celsius), it becomes a clear, colorless, odorless liquid. LNG is neither corrosive nor toxic. During the process known as liquefaction, natural gas is cooled below its boiling point, removing most of these compounds. The remaining natural gas is primarily methane with only small amounts of other hydrocarbons. LNG is an odorless, non-toxic and non-corrosive liquid, and if spilled, LNG would not result in a slick. Absent an ignition source, LNG evaporates quickly and disperses, leaving no residue. There is no environmental cleanup needed for LNG spills on water.

Emissions
Exposure to the levels of suspended fine particulate matter found in many U.S. cities has been shown to increase the risk of respiratory illness and other health problems. Much of the particulate matter in urban areas is due to transportation. Natural gas produces only tiny amounts of particulate matter. Natural gas is abundant, low-cost, and domestically produced.
Natural gas vehicles (NGV’s) also produce far less urban emissions than diesel vehicles. For example, even when the stringent 2007 EPA heavy-duty engine emission standards become applicable, NGV’s will be producing only one-sixth the NOx of comparable diesel engines. NGV’s have a deserving reputation for being one of the cleanest transport fuels available, not just with respect vehicle emissions, but also for fuel production. Studies around the world consistently show that natural gas engines produce fewer harmful emissions than petrol, diesel or LPG, in spite of the considerable improvements made to these fuels in recent years. Even when measured against other ‘clean’ fuels or methods, such as gasoline-electric hybrids, NGVs emissions are frequently lower.
The world’s cleanest internal combustion production line car is an NGV - the Honda Civic GX, available in the US. It has a dedicated engine which is reported in high polluting areas to produce exhaust emissions that are cleaner than the air going into the engine! The Civic can drive from the West Coast of the US to the East Coast and emit less non-methane hydrocarbons than if you were to spill one teaspoon of petrol!
Apart from producing fewer emissions, natural gas also poses fewer environmental hazards than other fuels. In the event of an accident, natural gas dissipates into the atmosphere rather than spilling on to the ground - a major benefit for our waterways and wildlife.

About Natural Gas Vehicles

• There are over 150,000 NGVs on U.S. roads today and over 5 million worldwide.
• There are over 1,500 NGV fueling stations in the U.S. - over half are available for public use.
• Natural gas costs, on average, one-third less than conventional gasoline at the pump.
• Over 50 different manufacturers produce 150 models of light, medium and heavy-duty vehicles and engines.
• Roughly 22 percent of all new transit bus orders are for natural gas.
• Natural gas is sold in GGEs or gasoline gallon equivalents. A GGE has the same energy content (124,800 BTUs) as a gallon of gasoline

<b> Ron, I haven’t found anywhere that the CNG Honda’s aren’t allowed in Oregon.

On Jul 12, 4:11 AM, Richpix wrote:

You could probably get it tagged, but fueling it would be a problem.  I checked into it a while back and could only find 2 public fueling stations in Oregon--one near Portland and one near Medford (one of those was out of service at the time).  Even if you went to CA and bought one you wouldn’t be able to get it to Astoria easily because it only has a range of 170 miles.

Home fueling sounds good but takes a long time to do.  It’s not fast fill like at a station.  If I remember correctly it was something like 16 hours to fill an empty tank and overnight for a partially depleted tank.  The necessary equipment for home fueling equipment is also expensive--once again from memory it was at least a couple grand but may have been more.  Plus installation requiring a 240 volt circuit.

I’m not sure about the taxing.  I’m pretty sure natural gas is taxed and Oregon further gives residents tax credits for buying alternative fuel vehicles:

Alternative Fuel Vehicles Incentive
Vehicles that run on alternative type of fuels qualify for a tax credit. Examples are electricity, natural gas, methanol, propane and hydrogen. Vehicles must be registered in the state of Oregon to operate on public roadways. An additional tax credit is available for installing a home charging or fueling system. The tax credit is 25 percent of the cost of the vehicle or device, not to exceed $750. The tax credit may be claimed for a vehicle and a charging or fueling system, for a total of $1,500.
Residential Energy Tax Credit

Hopefully there will be more infrastructure in the future and maybe the automakers will find a way to extend the range so drivers won’t be constrained to driving around their own neighborhood lest they should run out of fuel.

On Jul 12, 4:54 PM, Richpix wrote:

The GX holds a gasoline equivalent of 8 gallons (8.03 to be precise).  A rather small tank.  Honda claims a range of 220-250 miles on their web site but adds a disclaimer:  “*Your actual driving range may vary, depending on driving habits, fill pressure and “fast fill” effects.” So it would be wise to err on the conservative side.  Unlike a gasoline-powered car you can’t walk down to the station with a can and get enough to move you a few miles--you’d probably need a tow if the tank went empty. 

Consumer Reports had this to say:
The GX’s CNG tank also occupies a good deal of trunk space and once filled, it holds the energy of just eight gallons of gasoline. Honda rates the GX’s cruising range at 220 to 250 miles, but that might be optimistic. In our car, the low-fuel light has been coming on after only 150 miles of driving. That warning indicates only 30 miles left, which provides little leeway to look for a fill-up location given their scarcity in our area.

Anyway, you’d still have a hard time buying a GX in California and driving it to Astoria.  The nearest dealer is over 300 miles away.

Don’t be so sure about being warm and toasty with natural gas if there’s a power outage.  Unlike a tank-style water heater most furnaces don’t have a pilot light any more and rely on electronic ignition.  In other words, no power equals no heat.  Also, if it’s a forced-air system the fans wouldn’t work to move the air.  We have a radiant system (pipes under the floors) and it won’t work either because the pumps to move the water need electricity.